Ep4. What the REF is happening with the CKU?!
July 2, 2025In this jam-packed episode of What the Ref?!, we look into the latest updates on the REF, including the portability debate, and the ever-evolving world of not-traditionally submitted outputs—aka NTOs, or as our guest from Liverpool calls them, Dots (Diverse Output Types).
We kick off with dramatic outcries, vague role descriptors, and the REF team’s valiant attempt to clarify who actually counts in REF submissions (spoiler: more people than you think!). From technicians to research software engineers, the REF’s message is clear—contributions come in many forms.
Then we head to Liverpool, where trailblazer Natalie Wallis shares her experiences of recognising Dots/NTOs and working with us on the first at-scale NTO workshop. Our hosts explore themes around awareness-raising, cultural inertia, and the ever-present stick vs. carrot dilemma. Should universities do the right thing because it’s right—or only when there’s a strategic advantage? From software in computer science (all two submissions of it!) to composition, translation, and data, the team calls for a REF revolution.
If there’s anything in the REF guidance that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch wtref@hidden-ref.org.
Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick – a self-confessed REF junkie – and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.
