What the REF?!

A new podcast to demystify the REF

What the REF?! is a new podcast that will investigate issues around research culture, recognition for success in research and all things and everything to do with the REF. The REF is an amazing driver of research culture change. The goal of this podcast is to get more people to engage with it. Every fortnight we will discuss new subjects and talk with experts on the REF, research culture, hidden roles and non-traditional outputs.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick – a self-confessed REF junkie – and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

If you have a question about the REF that you would like us to answer, or an idea for the podcast, let us know at WTreF@hidden-ref.org, BlueSky or Linkedin.

Listen to What the REF?! on YouTube or wherever you usually find your podcasts.

Episodes

Ep5. What the REF are we doing with NTOs?!

In this jam-packed episode of What the Ref?!, we look into the latest updates on the REF, including the portability debate, and the ever-evolving world of not-traditionally submitted outputs—aka NTOs, or as our guest from Liverpool calls them, Dots (Diverse Output Types).

We kick off with dramatic outcries, vague role descriptors, and the REF team’s valiant attempt to clarify who actually counts in REF submissions (spoiler: more people than you think!). From technicians to research software engineers, the REF’s message is clear—contributions come in many forms.

Then we head to Liverpool, where trailblazer Natalie Wallis shares her experiences of recognising Dots/NTOs and working with us on the first at-scale NTO workshop. Our hosts explore themes around awareness-raising, cultural inertia, and the ever-present stick vs. carrot dilemma. Should universities do the right thing because it’s right—or only when there’s a strategic advantage? From software in computer science (all two submissions of it!) to composition, translation, and data, the team calls for a REF revolution.

If there’s anything in the REF guidance that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch wtref@hidden-ref.org.

Ep4. What the REF is happening with the CKU?!

It’s out! The CKU guidance is out! And it’s the focus of this episode.

We start with an update on our events, mainly focussing on their popularity. Both the Hidden REF Festival and the not-traditionally submitted output workshops that we ran recently at Kings and Liverpool have proven very popular.

We then discuss the guidance for the Contributions to Knowledge and Understanding (CKU) which was released on the 19th June 2025. Once again the REF have made clear their commitment that all outputs are equally important, and that outputs other than journal articles or books should be submitted. It won’t be clear which outputs will make the final list until Autumn 2025, but the guidance indicates that the submittable outputs will be broader than the 2021 REF.

It’s not all good news. The way in which the guidance attempts to identify the people who are involved in research creates an ambiguity that could be used to exclude a lot of research-active roles. We get into a discussion about definitions of “substantive link”, “enabling research” and “role descriptor” and how their definition will be of fundamental importance to the inclusiveness of the next REF. We then venture into probability of outputs and how it will affect people: the spirit of the REF is there and the devil is in the details!

Ep3. What the REF are our research incentives?

In this episode, we kick off with a few updates and then hear about the incredible agenda planned for the Festival of Hidden REF (7-8 October in Birmingham). We are hugely excited to welcome our first guest: Marcus Munafò, Deputy Vice-Chancellor and Provost at the University of Bath and Director of the UK Reproducibility Network. He talks about his experience of the REF and its role in incentivising research behaviour, how we can improve research quality by focussing on the entire research process and not just it’s final output, and the changes that will be needed if universities are to keep pace with the team-based nature of modern research.

The next episode of What the REF will be a big one! We’re going to take a look at the guidance for the Contribution to Knowledge and Understanding and some of the questions that it has generated.

Ep2. What the REF should we call these outputs?!

In this episode, we focus on the struggle of what to call the outputs that aren’t journal or book publications. We update on an article from Dame Jessica Corner on the People, Culture and Environment statement, what’s happening with REF panelists and – for possibly the first time in history – use the words “secretariat” and “interesting” in the same sentence.

Ep1. What the REF is this podcast all about?

The first ever episode of What the REF?! In this episode, we discuss the REF as an amazing driver of research culture change and our hopes for increasing engagement with the exercise so that we can build a research environment that is more equitable and more effective. We talk about our dream guests for future episodes, the difficulties in running an assessment that gets to the heart of what is important to research, REF myth busting, Gemma tests our knowledge of REF output categories, and we even look into how long it would take the average person to read through all of the REF guidance (spoiler: it’s about 11 days).